Katy: 

Emily, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today. I know that this is going to be an incredibly powerful discussion. So let’s, I know I introduced you already, but I want to hear it from you. I would love for you to just talk a bit more about yourself and the work you do and give the listeners some context for where you’re coming from.

Emily: 

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much, Katy, for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation and reconnect with you ah a decade later. So great to be here.  So yeah, I’m Emily. I am trained as a therapist. so I was a somatic traa therapist for many, many years. had a private practice after working in agency work for a long time. And then actually about a year and a half ago, closed down my therapy practice and have transitioned now into more full-time just sharing my work and the self-trust work that I’ve created more broadly with people through books and through other programs.

Katy: 

I love that. And I can’t wait to get into all of this self-trust stuff and and what it is that you have created and what you’ve developed from your experience. Talk to us about self-trust, especially here for for this podcast as it relates to food and our bodies. What does the lack of self-trust look like?

Emily: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a great topic for your podcast, given the name of your podcast and the whole focus around trusting your body. So really, well, I guess, let me back up a little bit in in terms of why I started focusing on self-trust.

Emily: 

And then we can kind of talk about what it looks like to maybe lack self-trust.

Katy: 

I love a good, yeah, like origin story. Absolutely.

Emily: 

So i like I said, I was a therapist for a long time. So i worked with a lot of different people. People were coming in for different reasons, or at least it seemed like they were coming in for different different reasons. You know, they were saying different words and when I was asking them why they were coming in.

Emily: 

But as we dug deeper and as we continued to kind of get underneath all those layers, what started to emerge was this common theme that they didn’t trust themselves. They were lacking that connection to themselves and lacking that connection to be able to trust there their intuition, to trust their body, or even to have a connection with their body.

Emily: 

And so once I realized that this was really at the heart of the work that we were doing, I started to wonder how could we make this easier on all of us? How could we simplify this to at least give us some sort of a framework?

Emily: 

Given everybody’s unique, everybody’s stories are different, we’re going to need different things, but are there some guardrails?

Emily: 

Are there some guidance that we can kind of follow? And that’s really… what started the origins of the self-trust model and what it became to be. And so we can talk about what that is a little bit later.

Emily: 

 But yeah, really what I see when people are lacking that self-trust is they are constantly doubting themselves or second guessing their decisions, or maybe they’re not even making a decision because they’re stuck in that decision paralysis.

Emily: 

 Also, ah big one is trying to control. So trying to control every little piece of everything. It’s because I don’t trust myself to handle what comes if something goes wrong  or even that fear of I’m going to make the wrong decisions.

Emily: 

 I think another one I see a lot is people that are serving, you know,  or  people in their lives every time they have a decision to make. It’s like what does everybody else think is the right answer? Instead of going inside first to tune into what feels right for me, it’s like, I’m going to check with everybody else first.

Emily: 

 So yeah, I see that a lot. And I’m curious for you, given your focus is so connected with food and the body, like how does that ah how does that land over there for you?

Katy: 

Oh, it totally tracks. I mean, those are definitely themes that I hear from people all the time. i was just having a client session earlier today where we were talking about how she ends up focusing a lot more on everybody else’s needs around her before she’ll pay any attention to her own needs.

Katy: 

And i was also thinking as you were talking about how that trying to control thing shows up

Katy: 

And also, i think dieting plays into this where it’s like you can’t trust yourself to make decisions about food and you can’t trust what your body is telling you. So therefore, you need this external plan and set of rules and calorie limit and all of that.

Katy: 

and And then I think it like further reinforces the lack of self-trust because then it’s like, oh, you couldn’t stick to it. That’s your fault. And that’s a deficit within you.

Katy: 

You don’t have enough willpower self-control or whatever.

Emily: 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s that, that, , turning over your power to an external source. If somebody else knows what’s right for my body, let me talk to a doctor or an influencer on Instagram about what I should be putting into my body. Let me not look in or trust, like you said, what my body is telling me.

Emily: 

And then that further eroding of, okay, I set a quote unquote goal around what I’m going to do. And then I don’t follow through. And then I’m eroding that trust more and more with my body.

Katy: 

Yeah, absolutely. So for people who have been doing this for decades, maybe even their whole lives as far as they can remember.

Katy: 

One of my recent guests,  Julie Duffy Dillon, was talking about the traa we experience from diet culture and from dieting. And and I would love to hear it as a traa therapist.

Katy: 

How do you see chronic dieting either showing up as ah form of traa itself or as like a response to traa where people will kind of outsource some of that self-trust and and wisdom and whatnot?

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. I love that question because it does speak to, or it highlights that often the chronic dieting is a symptom of something bigger, something deeper that we can look at.

Emily: 

And  again, everybody’s experiences are going to be unique and different about, so it’s not always this like core, like it doesn’t always automatically correlate of like, Oh, chronic dieting always means this.

Katy: 

Yeah, it’s not this, yeah, like one plus one equals two in this situation.

Emily: 

Yeah. It’s not like dream interpretation of like, oh, you dreamed about a dolphin. That means this.  But just taking that lens of like, this is likely just a symptom of something deeper.

Emily: 

And so even that perspective can be helpful. And then starting to get curious with the part of you that might be using dieting as a way to protect you. And that when I start to use that parts language, that’s kind of gets into some of my training, which is in internal family systems.

Emily: 

So IFS, parts work, that’s kind of the language that that we use there. And we look at how we’re all very multifaceted beings. So we all have these different parts of us inside. And sometimes these parts are conflicting.

Emily: 

 and But really getting curious about how all these parts are showing up. And all these parts have… a very positive intent in our life. It just doesn’t always show up. It doesn’t always feel that way. And so there might be this part of you that is using chronic dieting or using dieting strategies or, , you know, really connecting to dieting as this way to protect in some way or to try to, ,

Emily: 

try to benefit you in some way. And so it’s really getting curious with that part and even that separation of knowing, okay, this is not all of me. This is just a part of me. And then you start to build a relationship between yourself and then the part that’s using dieting and understanding why.

Emily: 

And that’s, again, when we get to those deeper layers and knowing that those deeper layers might look different for every person.

Katy: 

And to appreciate that that part is trying to help you, even if it’s maybe a little misguided. Yeah.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. Even if it looks like destruction in your life, every part has positive intention. And so understanding, and as you start to build that relationship with that part, what’s really, what I think is really cool is that you don’t have to force this compassion for the part. Oftentimes, once you start to know the part and understand why the part is showing up in your life, maybe even when the part started showing up in your life and you realize, wow, this has been going on for a really long time, you start to have this compassion that just like kind of naturally emerges.

Emily: 

and then sometimes you can even have gratitude for how this part has tried to protect you. Knowing that again, doesn’t mean you want this part to continue showing up in your life moving forward, but you can have understanding of why it’s there and how it has tried to protect you throughout your life.

Katy: 

Well, yeah, even just naturally having those feelings of compassion and gratitude is huge because that’s so hard to have towards ourselves and towards our bodies.

Katy: 

So for for that framework to be able to help us cultivate that, I think it’s a huge shift.

Katy: 

And I would say also like where wherever we just said dieting in this context, you could also replace like eating or binging or restricting or disordered eating.

Katy: 

Like you could substitute those words and go rewind and re-listen to that. And like the same thing still applies. It’s the same idea here.

Emily: 

Absolutely. Yeah, insert any any of those behaviors or those patterns or  you know narratives that we tell ourself. And again, a question I think is really helpful once you start to recognize, okay, this is a part of me, I’m slowing down and I want to get curious and I want to know this part, is asking yourself, asking this part, like, how familiar is this part?

Emily: 

you know how  How often has this part showed up in my life? And then also you know asking, like, when’s the first time I remember this part showing up? And for many of us that might be very, very young.

Emily: 

And again, that’s that building the relationship and understanding,  wow, this part has been operating in the background for a really long time. And again, that might also give you clarity about why this part first started showing up.

Emily: 

Why did this part feel the need to start to chronic or to to start dieting in the first place? It’s going to give you a lot of insight. And again, potentially ah some compassion and and clarity might emerge from there.

Katy: 

That’s great. I really love that. That would be a great thing to journal about and just like kind of reflect on for sure.

Katy: 

So if someone is wanting to lean into this idea of self-trust, do you have a good starting point? Like how do they even begin with that? And and then maybe we can look at it through the lens of food specifically. Like They’re standing there in front of the pantry, in front of the fridge, and they’re second guessing themselves.

Katy: 

They don’t know, like, should I eat? Should I not eat? What should I have? Am I hungry? Am I not hungry? Where would you even begin with a client if you were working with them?

Emily: 

Yeah. Well, I want to just first start by saying, even you just asking that question, i felt the like kind of overwhelmed because it’s a lot, you know, like dealing with everything is like, where do I even start? Okay. i I understand that I’m not trusting myself,  but still, how do I get through the day? And like, I need to feed myself and I’m standing in front of the fridge and like, I don’t even know what to do. I don’t even know where to start. So just, I think acknowledging first that like, this is, this is a big deal and it’s a lot and it’s overwhelming to the system. And often,

Emily: 

When we start to feel overwhelmed, or at least like when I would hear people use the language of overwhelm, it was a signal to me that their body was often, if not already in a freeze response was kind of on the cusp of a freeze response and in that more shut down, nbed out place.

Emily: 

more disconnected. So it’s really hard to actually be connected to your body in that place and to tune into what your body wants or needs in that moment. So just want to acknowledge that first.  And then, yeah, I think maybe to set the stage for kind of where to start, would it be helpful to go through the self-trust, like the framework, the compass that we use?

Katy: 

I think that’s a great idea because that might give us sort of that bird’s eye overview or kind of a roadmap.

Emily: 

Perfect. So the self-trust framework is I designed it like a compass. And so there’s four, like the four principles of cultivating more trust with yourself are designed with the four directions of a compass. And they’re designed like a compass for a reason, because it’s not a simple four-step solution. And we don’t get to go check, check, check. I’ve done those four things. And now I never have to worry about this again. You know, this is  something that we often have to revisit all throughout life.

Emily: 

We have to go in all directions many, many times as we evolve as a person. And  so, yeah, so that’s why it’s designed that way. And I do encourage people if they’re just starting out and are feeling overwhelmed and like somebody just give give me something, tell me where to start. I encourage you people to start with north just because Like when you’re out in the actual wild and you need to figure out where you are, you first line up the compass to go north.

Emily: 

And so you, at that point, at least you know which direction you’re facing and then you can navigate from there. So north on the compass is radical honesty. So this is all about going inward and being really, really real with yourself.

Emily: 

And so when we think about building trust with yourself, we can also correlate to building trust with others. So we think about people who tell us the truth, people who are honest with us, we learn that we can trust them. You know, we don’t trust people who lie to us, even if they have really good reasons for lying to us, even if it’s little white lies, we learn we can’t trust them.

Emily: 

And so when we’re dishonest with ourself, if we’re telling ourself little white lies or we’re trying to tell us what we think we want to hear, you know,  we we erode that trust in ourselves. So we have to start by being honest with ourself first.

Emily: 

 East on the compass is keeping promises. So this is all about following through, doing what you say you’re going to do. Again, similar to building trust with other people. We don’t trust people who constantly flake out on us or, you know, don’t follow through on their word.

Emily: 

So we have to follow through in order to build that self-trust. Now, this might be one that we kind of circle back to because there is a lot of nuance here. It’s not as simple as if I follow through, I always trust myself.

Emily: 

And if I don’t follow through, erode trust. Because sometimes we have to understand where are you setting the promise from? Like, where are you setting a commitment from?

Emily: 

Where is that goal coming from?

Katy: 

Because as you were saying it, I was already thinking, well, I went on this diet and I promised I was only going to eat X nber of calories per day.

Emily: 

There’s a pitfall right there. And so I love to like bring that up at the beginning because it would be great if it was so simple.

Emily: 

And it was like that soundbite of like, okay, I just do what I say I’m going to do. And then I will automatically trust myself forever. And it’s like, unfortunately it’s not that simple because yeah. Where is that goal, that promise to I’m going to go on X amount of diet or I’m going to lose X amount of pounds.

Emily: 

Like where is that actually coming from? Because if it’s not, if the If you’re not setting those intentions or setting those goals from a place of being truly connected to your wise, adult, competent self, it makes sense that you won’t be able to follow through.

Emily: 

And so if you’re setting a goal from people-pleasing part or a competitive part or, you know, what your mom thinks you need to do or again, what an Instagram influencer you saw said you need to do.

Katy: 

Or even something that like goes against your biology.

Katy: 

I mean, we could go ridiculous with it, too, of like, well, I’m just going to, like, not sleep anymore because I have so many things to do.

Katy: 

Like, well, obviously, that you can’t do that.

Emily: 

Yes, yeah, you’re you are setting yourself up for failure.

Emily: 

And so what I talk about a lot is sometimes you actually have to break a promise to yourself in order to come back into integrity with yourself. And so it’s a lot about really, again, getting clear and ah radically honest with yourself about what’s true for you, like what are truly your values, really knowing yourself deeply so that you can then set goals from that place and be in integrity with the goals that you’re setting. It’s gonna set you up to be able to follow through better.

Emily: 

Yep. That’s Northeast and then wet, or I’m sorry, South is regulation.

Emily: 

So this is where we get into food. So it’s really difficult to trust your intuition when your nervous system is dysregulated. And so this whole area is all all around regulation.

Emily: 

So really looking at nervous system regulation, how to  build more capacity in your nervous system to not stay a, you know, mythical regulated state forever, but to be able to experience the highs and lows of life and then have capacity to come back into a state of regulation.

Emily: 

And so it’s that ability to be resilient and to bounce back. And so there are tons of nervous system hacks that you can find. You know, I think nervous system work is becoming, you know, a lot more mainstream and people are talking about it, but the work that I do with people you really grounding them in the basics.

Emily: 

And so sometimes it’s very boring, but I encourage people to start there because you’re really giving yourself a gift if you start with a solid foundation. And so I talk about five areas of regulation to really start with, and that is fuel.

Emily: 

So how are you fueling your body? You know food, water, supplements, movement, how are you moving your body, but also how are you resting your body? So your connection to movement and rest, sleep, you brought up sleep already, sunlight, and then  ah connection. So connection with other people, connection with nature.

Emily: 

So these are these five areas to really spend some time and focus on and, and, , again, nurture the relationship in each of these areas, that it’s going to give you a solid foundation of regulation. And then you can build on that. And the more you have this solid foundation, the more you can discern which nervous system practices or body work practices are going to be for you.

Emily: 

And then you can kind of build from there. And so that’s really, again, through this model, through this lens, it’s not prescriptive at all. So I’m not telling people, this is what you should eat, or this is how you should sleep or anything like that. Again, it’s much more about the emphasis on tuning in and learning to connect to yourself about your own needs in each of those five areas and playing around with it and figuring out what works for you.

Katy: 

Incredible. Yes, I love that. And because I can see where that fosters that self-trust when you’re figuring out for yourself what you need in those areas.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. So that’s regulation that South. And then the final direction on the compass is West, which is knowing yourself.

Emily: 

I’m like seeing it. Yeah. So West on the compass is know yourself. And so this is again, coming back to the idea of when who we who we trust, you know we don’t inherently trust strangers. And so we have to know ourself, but we can’t be a stranger to ourself if we want to trust ourself.

Emily: 

So this can show up in a lot of different ways in terms of how do I know myself? Do I know myself financially? Do I know myself physically, mentally?  How do I know like my connection to my body? You know, there’s just so many realms that we can get to know ourself and  That’s, again, why this is not a one a one-time thing that you go through the compass once. There’s all many, many evolutions that we can get to know ourselves throughout time.

Katy: 

Amazing. You know, sometimes I’ll ask my clients, things when it comes to food, you know, what, what do you like? What do you genuinely like and dislike that’s not rooted in food rules?

Katy: 

And sometimes they’re like, I don’t even know. or I had one client, she was afraid of eating pizza.

Katy: 

So we did a challenge of like, okay, you’re going to eat pizza and show yourself that it’s okay. And she’s like, I did it and it was fine. And I go, well did you like it?

Katy: 

Was it enjoyable? Did it taste good to you? And she’s like, she kind of gave me this blank stare. Like I hadn’t even considered asking myself that question.

Emily: 

Yes. Yes. Like that didn’t even cross my.

Katy: 

that’s how disconnected we get is like we wouldn’t even consider our own preferences because that it’s been irrelevant for so long.

Emily: 

Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There’s a chapter in my first book specifically where I talk about that with food and that idea of, well, gosh, you know, I just have always done even what my partner wants to do or who I’m living with. I just eat what they want to eat. I don’t even check in with myself first. And then so that practice of asking yourself, like, what actually do I want to eat? And yeah, do I even like tomatoes? Do I like, you know, guacamole? And just like figuring that out and like letting it be this kind of  curious experiment to get to know yourself and what you’re

Emily: 

what your likes are outside of like you said all the rules that you’ve been told oh yeah

Katy: 

Oh, for sure. And I think with movement too, and even the way like that we connect with others, you know, if if you’re the type of person who just goes with the flow of like whatever the group wants to do is what you’ll do.

Katy: 

or you know, what would happen if you suggested the outing or the get together or the restaurant that you want to go to or the movie you want to see?

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. This could be  a confronting one for a lot of people once they realize, they like, oh my gosh, i don’t I don’t know myself at all. and And then starting that process of rebuilding that relationship and that connection with themselves.

Emily: 

And I ah encourage a lot of solo dates and like taking yourself out on dates and getting to know yourself and learning what do you like, what don’t you like. Yeah. And in food and and all domains.

Katy: 

That’s a really fun idea to just even to ponder what would you do if you went on a solo date? Like, where would you go? And what would you want to do? And, and to try it and just see, do you like it or not?

Katy: 

And think of it like an experiment. I think that could be really fun.

Emily: 

Yeah, I created a little docent for one of my clients. And then i I actually put it in the second book where I came up with like two date ideas. So two solo date ideas for every month of the year. And they kind of correspond with, you know, what’s happening in nature and what’s available.

Emily: 

And the whole point of it, yeah, is to go on these dates. And then the whole the goal is not necessarily I’m going to love everything, but it’s I’m going to get to know myself through the process and learn what I like and what I don’t like.

Katy: 

Yeah, that’s really cool. And I like that idea that the goal ist is that you don’t necessarily love everything because you’re getting out of your comfort zone and trying new things.

Emily: 

and Yeah. Learning to connect with your know is really, really powerful.

Katy: 

Oh, yes. That is really powerful. I love that.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a big thing I talk about with clients is like, You know, that discernment piece, I think, is really what helps us to cultivate the trust with o ourselves, is learning what is a yes in my body and what is a no.

Emily: 

And again, until we have connection to our no, we don’t really have access to our yes, because we don’t have that.

Emily: 

We don’t have the ability to say no to something. And so the the yes isn’t coming from a pure place.

Katy: 

Yeah. I’m thinking about a scenario. There was something the other day. Someone had presented me with an opportunity and my gut instinct was, no, no, I don’t want to that.

Katy: 

But then I started second guessing myself. Well, but maybe that is a good opportunity. Maybe I should consider it. Maybe I just didn’t want to do it because it’s a little out of my comfort zone and I need to like expand my horizons. And I totally went through this whole like self-doubt thing.

Katy: 

how How would you help somebody in a scenario like that where like they have a no, but then they’re trying to also maybe be open to new things? like would you I guess I’ll just leave it to you What would you do in that scenario?

Emily: 

Yeah. Well, i love that example because I think it speaks to that point that a lot of us get into of like not knowing what is this? Is this my intuition telling me not to do this?

Emily: 

Or is this fear telling me not to do this?

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah, and like and I think a lot about how, I’ve talked about self-trust being the antidote to anxiety, you know and how when we build that trust in ourself, we  are able to take action and we’re able to be confident, not because we know we’re gonna get everything right, but because we know we’re gonna be able to handle whatever comes our way.

Emily: 

And so one way that I talk to people about kind of discerning between anxiety or fear with intuition is not necessarily gonna help you in that exact moment, but it’s like a process of building up to saying like coming into contact with that no intentionally or or that fear intentionally.

Emily: 

So knowing that like this is actually something that is aligned with me, But it is scary. And starting to feel the fear, starting to know what does fear actually feel like in my body? How does it show up somatically in my body? Because fear, anxiety, it’s very similar to intuition, you know? And so you have to start to figure that out for yourself and get reps, get practice in knowing. Because sometimes there’s this idea that  fear or anxiety always feels bad or it always feels constricted.

Katy: 

Okay, dig back in wherever you’re ready.

Emily: 

and Okay, perfect. Yeah. Yeah. so a misconception that I hear around discerning between anxiety and intuition is that anxiety or fear always feels like bad in your body or it feels restrictive in some way.

Emily: 

And then intuition feels good and feels expansive. But to me, what I’ve experienced is not that. And it’s not what I’ve seen a lot of my clients experience either, is there’s actually a lot of nuance. And so again, it’s not as clear cut and prescriptive as that. and And it’s really, again, about tuning into your own body.

Emily: 

and learning how anxiety shows up for you and how intuition shows up. Because for me, sometimes intuition does not feel good. you know Intuition sometimes takes us down some really uncomfortable paths.

Emily: 

And so we can know in our body, our intuition is communicating a path that we need to go down.  And kind of using your example, I’ve had a similar experience where, you know, public speaking was never a thing I enjoyed.

Emily: 

And yeah, not maybe an opportunity to to present publicly. And it’s like, oof, that like  kind of churning in the stomach, kind of feel a little nauseous. It’s like, oh, well, this feels bad.

Emily: 

So that probably means it’s anxiety and I’m off the hook. I don’t have to do it. When really that’s an aligned action. It’s just, it’s uncomfortable. It’s new. And so it’s showing up as,

Emily: 

you know, nerve wracking, but that’s still your intuition telling you this is the path for you. And so again, it’s really having to tune into yourself to start to see what are those, what are those subtle differences between intuition and anxiety?

Emily: 

And again, that does take practice to start to connect more and more into how your body communicates that with you.

Katy: 

Yeah, absolutely. And that makes so much sense that, yeah, having the practice and the experience to draw from.

Katy: 

So, okay, what I see over and over again are women who feel not only disconnected from their bodies, but they actively dislike their bodies.

Katy: 

So it’s not only like I’m not connected. I don’t even like my body. i don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to look at it. I i just, I want it to go away. or they’re it’s like they’re walking around without a body.

Katy: 

They’re just so detached. It’s just their head walking around.

Katy: 

okay. If the idea for them of of trusting their body or listening to their body feels like this quant leap from where they’re at, like where could someone begin or or what might you do with that level of dislike and disconnection?

Emily: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, i love  even just kind of recognizing that this is not easy work, you know, because I think even the the phrase of like, just trust your gut gets thrown around a lot as if if that were an easy thing to do. Like, yeah, just trust your body, trust your gut.

Emily: 

And again, if you’ve experienced any type of dysregulation, any type of traa, any type of situation that has disconnected you from your body, it’s going to be very, very difficult to trust your intuition.

Emily: 

can be very difficult to actually tune in and trust your body. And so that leap is just sometimes too big. And so i again, I really do encourage people to start. around on the compass of being very honest with themselves, of starting with that place of being really radically honest with like, this is really scary right now.

Emily: 

It’s really scary to even think about connecting into my body. And so acknowledging that, and you know, you’re kind of putting the pin on the map of like, this is where I’m starting.

Emily: 

And at least then, you know, where you’re going to be starting from. And so you can kind of map out your trail from an accurate starting point versus pretending that, oh, I love my body. And yeah, I’m going to like repeat all these affirmations and pretend that I believe these things when I really don’t.

Emily: 

 Again, that, I think that that disconnect, that, that incongruence between what you’re saying or what you’re trying to convince yourself versus what’s actually true is where a lot of this, , this like existential pain comes from.

Emily: 

 and so that’s why I don’t really encourage people to do, you know, kind of self-love affirmations. I think that is often just too big of a leap. And so sometimes i I break it down a little bit more into like, what is a loving way that you could relate to your body today.

Emily: 

And maybe even that’s too much, but it’s like, is there a loving way that I could relate to,  a part of my body, you know, and and trying to break it down to the smallest possible step and building up to get to where you want to go.

Emily: 

But again, starting really small, that’s a big thing we do in nervous system work is titration. And so we start really, really small to not overwhelm your system with too much.

Katy: 

That’s great. And yeah, just even if you can find a part of your body to relate to, it makes me think a lot how i I will often tell people on day one, if I just told you to go eat intuitively, like, what does that mean?

Katy: 

You know, o and sometimes we do have to like,

Emily: 

Yeah. What does that mean?

Katy: 

use stepping stones to get there or kind of build to it or practice different skills along the way, then it it gradually becomes more easy over the time over time.

Katy: 

And I think it’s probably the same thing with self-trust. i You know, I feel like these two concepts very much sort of dovetail together.

Katy: 

Here’s another one that I would love to get your input on. So a very common struggle among my clients and and people who listen to this podcast is that they don’t want to diet or restrict anymore. Like they don’t want to keep struggling with food, but they also want to lose weight.

Katy: 

And so they feel like they’re in this like conflict and they’re sort of pulled in both directions. How can someone navigate that space without judgment one way or the other?

Emily: 

here yeah yeah and also maybe recognizing that there might be some judgment that comes up and that’s going to be part of the process is kind of

Katy: 

Oh, that’s so good. So yeah, the goal doesn’t have to be no judgment.

Emily: 

Yeah, well, and and getting curious about the judgment if it does show up.

Emily: 

So this, when you ask this, it really connects me back to that more of that IFS perspective, which I was saying is like, we all have these different parts. And so this is a beautiful example of, hey, I have this part of me who doesn’t want to diet anymore, who doesn’t want to restrict anymore, who kind of has this like,

Emily: 

understanding that that’s not the path that i want to keep going down. And then I have this other part of me who wants to lose weight and these parts getting in conflict with each other and they each want to be the one who’s making the decision.

Emily: 

and that just kind of gets into a battle. And so when we think about this parts work, the way One like kind of visual to think about is you as the adult self, again, this wise, competent adult who has clarity, who is curious, who is compassionate, who is confident.

Emily: 

There’s this adult version of you, and then you have all these parts. And so you’ve got the part of you that doesn’t want to diet anymore. And then you’ve got the part that wants to lose weight. So instead of letting these two parts duke it out and try to come up with a winner, you want to establish a relationship with each of these parts individually.

Emily: 

So you want to really get curious about the part of you who doesn’t want to diet anymore. you know And really understanding where that desire comes from, understanding that part more, getting curious about that part, building trust with that part.

Emily: 

That’s really what we’re doing here is between all these parts, we’re building trust between the adult and these parts. And again, that fosters the self-trust. And then over here, you want to have a relationship with the part of you that wants to lose weight.

Emily: 

And once again, get curious about this part, just as much as you get curious about the part who doesn’t want to diet, I want to get just as curious and try to bring as much non-judgment to the part that wants to lose weight.

Emily: 

And again, because the part who wants to lose weight is also coming from a place with very benevolent and intentions. This part is trying to protect you. So again, it’s getting really curious about where is the root of that protection coming from?

Emily: 

What does this part think? How does this part think it’s helping you or saving you in some way? And so, again, sometimes these parts are misguided. They don’t have all the information that we have as an adult. And so just understanding where they’re coming from, kind of what age these parts are, can give you a lot of insight. And then you ultimately, as the adult, get to make the decision.

Emily: 

But you’re hearing all these parts out. And so instead of letting these parts duke it out, try to come up with an answer, fighting over each other. you know it’s like letting two children kind of duke it out and see what they can come up with.

Emily: 

Instead, it’s you as the adult hearing everybody out, letting everybody have a voice, and then ultimately you take all that information and you get to make a decision from that place. And like said, judgment might come in too.

Emily: 

And so if you notice you have a judgment part coming in, you also want to get curious about the judgment.

Emily: 

You know, how is the part that’s being judgmental, what part is it trying to serve in your in your life as well and getting curious about it?

Katy: 

I can literally, as you’re talking about this picture, my two kids fighting with each other. And I do that where like, okay, I will hear you both out. And then based on all of the information, I can make the the decision as the adult.

Katy: 

I think that’s a great imagery to be able to use.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. I had once a client who was telling me about a visual of like a boardroom. So it was like, she was in a boardroom and she had this, like a table full of all of her parts and they all wanted to be heard and they all, you know, needed to share their pieces. Like, great, we can do that. But I’m at the one, like at the head of the table, making the final decision.

Katy: 

Ooh, I like that. Yeah, you’re like the chairman of the board or whatever they call it.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah, and realizing that so often our parts just wanna be heard. They have something that feels very important to share and so they they need to speak it. And if you try to pretend like that part’s not there, they will get louder. They will get,  and they might get louder through their voice, but their behavior might get louder. So this part of you who wants to lose weight, if you try to pretend that that part doesn’t exist, the part doesn’t go away.

Emily: 

And so again, if you’re not hearing that part out, if you’re not understanding and really getting curious about why that part is there, the part will get louder. And again, that’s often the behavior of wanting to lose weight showing up in a bigger, louder way, maybe even  kind of a more covert way in this situation too.

Katy: 

I do see that quite a bit where, yeah, like sometimes like the tactics will get a little bit sneakier or the kind of morph over time.

Katy: 

And that’s interesting to think of it as, you know, the part is just trying to be heard or to get its way and it’s trying to tell you something important.

Emily: 

Yes. Yeah. that Our parts are very, they’re all messengers of something. And so if we try to pretend they’re not there and they don’t go away, the message doesn’t go away. it just,  it finds another way to get to you.

Katy: 

That’s a really cool way to think of it. I love that. For someone who is working through food and and body image stuff like we’re talking about, besides just changing kind of the the thoughts and and the mindset and all of that, are there any…

Katy: 

Other strategies or concrete steps that can help build trust with the self, trust with our bodies. Do you do you have any additional, don’t know if exercise is the right like exercises for them to do, but things they can put into place that might help with that self-trust.

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think about that, again, kind of shifting from earlier, you talked about like kind of a cutoff disconnected from the body. And I would talk a lot about like, you know, the floating head, you know, i think there’s often times when we’ve been a floating head and we have no idea what’s going on, you know, from the shoulders down.

Emily: 

And there’s so much wisdom and so much knowledge that is held in our body. And when we’re disconnected, we don’t have access to that. And so instead of trying to just logic or think your way towards a better relationship with food,  it’s really looking at connecting to the body.

Emily: 

And  again, that, that brings me really into that place of nervous system regulation. And so I do encourage people to really start with those five areas of regulation again, and maybe it’s not starting with the fuel, you know, so maybe you’re not starting with the one that has the biggest trigger for you.

Emily: 

You know, sometimes we go to the heart of like the the hardest thing, the worst thing, let’s start there where I encourage actually people to start on the edges, kind of start on the periphery where you can have some success and it feels like more more accessible to you at that time. And so maybe, you know, fuel or food isn’t the entering point for you. Maybe that’s too much right now, but maybe getting out and getting some sunlight is is doable right now, or maybe taking time to really prioritize connection. So maybe you’re somebody who lives with a loved one. So maybe you can spend some extra time throughout the week

Emily: 

just having some connection mentally, emotionally, physically connecting, you know, having a longer hug with that person and feeling what it’s like to be connected to another person. Cause know, we’re, we’re animals. We’re,  pack animals after all. And so we need that connection.

Emily: 

So maybe it’s really leaning in for a week and fostering how do I support connection in my life? And then maybe the next week it’s looking at how do i really look at my sleep and how can i nurture my sleep and how can I set myself up for success around sleep and look at my relationship with sleep?

Emily: 

So again, How can you start to slowly, gradually build more and more capacity in your nervous system? Every time, every area of these are going to build more capacity in your nervous system. And by the time you get to fuel or movement towards the end, you have some tools built up in your resource to be able to have ah more success in those areas too.

Katy: 

Mm-hmm. That’s great. And it’s like you said earlier, it’s often those things that aren’t super sexy and exciting, but it is so foundational and it’s tried and true. Like that’s why it’s not sexy is because there’s so much evidence to support it.

Katy: 

And people would probably be more excited if you had this like outrageous thing that you were suggesting that was like not evidence-based at all.

Katy: 

So yeah, i think it’s that good reminder that like, no, the basics do matter and for good reason.

Emily: 

Yeah. And again, that piece of like, if we’re being really honest, like we know like when we’re sleeping better, when we’re nurturing our body, when we’re connected to people, like when we’ve seen the sun, you know, in the last  hours, like we feel better.

Katy: 

yeah Yeah. It’s like getting radically honest with ourselves again. Yeah.

Emily: 

Sometimes you’re like, no just like give me the hack. Give me the like three easy steps to like just knock this out so I can move on to the next thing in my life.

Katy: 

Yeah. Give me like the the Instagram reel, the TikTok version of it, of the three hacks for your nervous system or whatever it is.

Katy: 

And it’s not quite that simple.

Emily: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then also, the again, the awareness that like some of these,  you know, I think there’s like some really cool breathing practices. There are some great bodywork practices. There are things you can do.

Emily: 

But again, when you have this solid foundation, you have something to build on. So if you try to just jp in, you know, biohack or bypass your way to those other tricks, you’re you’re building on a shaky foundation. We also know that that’s not going to be helpful long term.

Emily: 

But when you have this solid foundation, then you again, you have those discernment skills to know, do I want to spend time like learning this breathing practice? Do I want to take up,  you know, some type of a movement practice that could could help me? Do I want to, you know, try some hacks online and just see if they work?

Emily: 

You know, maybe I’m going to try sauna. And like, I personally, I love cold plunging. It’s like one of my favorite things. Do I think it has the benefits of what everybody claims? Who knows? I know I enjoy it.

Emily: 

And so it’s like figuring out for you what works for you. and  being okay to like try things and have like, no, that doesn’t really work or no, maybe it’s not evidence-based, but maybe I enjoy doing it, you know, and letting yourself enjoy that too.

Katy: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, it’s very parallel to what I say to people with nutrition. Like if you’re not eating enough, what you’re eating doesn’t really matter that much.

Katy: 

Or like no specific food is going to make or break your health.

Katy: 

Like we’ve got to have that solid foundation before we can tinker with these like little super specific things that might help.

Katy: 

So it’s important to have those foundations.

Katy: 

Yeah. ah What about overthinking? So for people who are stuck with just constantly overthinking, self-doubt, insecurity, and It’s not just affecting like they’re big going for their dreams, chasing the stars, but it’s affecting how they take care of themselves just on like a very day-to-day basis.

Katy: 

What do you tend to see in people who are lacking self-trust in terms of how they show up with the way that they’re eating, they’re moving, they’re resting, like just doing kind of the basic body care things? Yeah.

Emily: 

Yeah. And I think similar to to many of these things, like we can all kind of have different  ways that that manifests. And so from a nervous system perspective, we think about kind of dysregulation being  more stuck on, you can also be more stuck off. So we have different parts of our nervous system. We have our  our parasympathetic nervous system, which is gonna be more of that kind of disconnected, more lethargic, more nbed out,

Emily: 

ah depression is more often seen here. And then we have more of our sympathetic arousal when we’re stuck on in a sympathetic arousal. That’s when we’re more anxious. That’s when we’re more revved up. That’s more of our fight or flight energy.

Emily: 

And so again, even thinking about like insecurity and overthinking, like how that can look different depending on kind of how your nervous system is , not how your nervous system is wired, but how it’s been trained to respond based on your past experiences. a lot of us kind of get stuck in a pattern of, uh, when something overwhelming happens, I always go to like disconnect.

Emily: 

or  something stressful happens and I get amped up and I’m in a more anxious place. And so what we often need to help come back to a place of regulation is different. If we’re like stuck on in anxiety or we’re nbed out in disconnection, we’re going to need different things. And so it’s really, again, kind of tracking your own nervous system, learning about yourself to know what is kind of my tendency? Do I tend to get kind of amped up, revved up?

Emily: 

Because you might need a different practice than if you’re somebody who nbs out, disconnects.

Katy: 

yeah so really yeah learning to know yourself and your tendencies and which way you tend to lean that makes so much sense absolutely yeah

Emily: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the idea that like medicine for one is poison to the other. And so for somebody who’s like really, , kind of trending in the direction of being more anxious, more hyped up, ,

Emily: 

you know, breathing can be, for some people, can be a kind of a settling practice. And you can start to tune into that in terms of  allowing your exhale to be a little bit longer than your inhale.

Emily: 

So that activates more of that parasympathetic part of your nervous system, which helps you to kind of settle back down. But if you’re trying to do that when you’re already disconnected and nbed out from your body, like that’s just going to add,  you know, more disconnection, more like kind of going trending downward. And so you actually need something that’s going to be more bringing kind of more  ah aliveness into your system, more connection to your system. So you need something different.

Emily: 

So yeah, really tracking, learning your own system to know what you may need.

Katy: 

That’s great. Absolutely. Okay, so as we kind of bring this all together, I would love to know from your vantage point, like what do you think are some of the biggest takeaways that that people should leave with?

Katy: 

Like what feels the most, not the most important, but you know, if we were to kind of pull out some specific themes here, what do you think are some of those key points that

Emily: 

Yeah, well, i think a big one that I would love to leave the audience with is that this is worth it. Because I think we’ve spent however long we’ve been talking, most of what we’ve been talking about is like pretty hard work. And we’ve been talking about how how hard all of this is.

Emily: 

And it is, it is that it’s challenging. You know, doing any type of deep inner work is not for the faint of heart. I understand why people don’t want to do it.  It’s hard.

Emily: 

And I also want to let people know that it’s really worth it, you know, and and it won’t always be this hard forever. And so once you start to build up, I like to think of self-trust as a muscle. And once you start to build that muscle, you also have muscle memory. And so even if you you know get busy with life for a while, you come back and you’re like, oh yeah, I know how to do this. i have ah have this.

Emily: 

And the more you have this self-trust muscle, that’s where confidence  comes from. That’s where you’re able to make decisions confidently and live your life from a place of being truly connected to yourself and confident how you’re living.

Emily: 

And so for me, I just want to like just share with people that it is worth all the hard work, at least in my opinion.

Katy: 

Okay, Emily. I want to leave people with a way to find you. i want Tell us about your book also. I forgot to specifically ask about that. So tell us all things about the book and then where people can find the book as well as connect with you.

Emily: 

Yes. Perfect. So the book is called, you can trust yourself, unlock the wise woman within using modern tools and ancient wisdom. So really has the entire self-trust model in their bridges, somatic work, parts work, and principles from psychedelic therapy. So all of that is included in the book.

Emily: 

You can get it on Amazon. You can also order it directly from my website. , so that is curiosity rising.com. And there’s a link on there to order the book. , And then, yeah, I’m working with people who want to learn more about the self-trust model, working specifically with other practitioners who are wanting to bring this framework into their work. And so I am doing some more one-on-one sessions throughout the rest of the smer. And then I’m offering some workshops here in Denver for people who want to kind of get a taste of the model.

Emily: 

So I’ve got one coming up  in a couple of weeks here. So again, all that information is on my website. And then ah do have a podcast called the self-trust podcast. So if you’re more of an audio listener, it’s basically all the content that’s in the book  is in the podcast.

Katy: 

That’s great. Yes. So whatever your format is that you like to learn, there are ways for you to learn it.

Katy: 

Now, is the workshop in Denver, is that for general public or practitioners?

Emily: 

So that one’s going for general public. And yep, you’ll get a copy of the book included.

Emily: 

And then we’ll do like a little teaser of each of the three modalities and get a chance to kind of  feel into what, what, uh, yeah, I’m super excited to do more in person.

Katy: 

Oh, I would be so all over that if I was in Denver. And then as far as practitioners, because i I know that there are some people who are practitioners who listen to this. What types of practitioners do you tend to work with or what’s a good fit for your self-trust model?

Katy: 

Like who who is it sort of intended for?

Emily: 

Yeah. Yeah. So definitely intended for people that are working one-on-one or in a ah group setting really. So right now it’s been,  mostly therapists and coaches. , so yeah, so therapists, coaches, , also getting into working with like doulas, , and people that are really wanting to help their, you know, ,

Emily: 

their clients connect to themselves and to their body before such a pivotal moment, which I’m really excited about that.  So yeah, really any coach, therapist,  body worker, doulas, group leaders, like facilitators. So it’s really taking the self-trust framework and applying it to what your scope of practice already is and just applying these practices and this perspective to the work that you’re already doing.

Katy: 

That’s really cool. And I’m sure that anyone listening, if you were ever like, I don’t know if it’s right for me, like I’m sure Emily would be willing to talk to you to help you discern that. But yeah.

Emily: 

Yep, yep, yep. I offer like a -minute consultation with practitioners who are interested in learning more to see if working together is a good fit to see, you know, if it works for them.

Katy: 

Perfect. Yeah. Well, and I would imagine if as a practitioner, it’s like not the right fit, which I have a hard time imagining a scenario where it wouldn’t be. I think it like ah just for a general person, for your own personal benefit, it would probably be really helpful too.

Katy: 

So yeah, everybody definitely check out Emily.

Katy: 

Like I said, you know, we have known each other for a long time and it’s been fun to reconnect and and get caught up in this way. And I just love the work that she’s doing.

Emily: 

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It’s been great to reconnect with you too. And  yeah, and we’ll be chatting more about your work soon as well.

Katy: 

Yes, I’m excited for that. Thanks for being here, Emily.

Emily: 

Thank you.

Rate, Review & Follow Us!

“I love Katy and Rebuilding Trust With Your Body.” <– If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more people — just like you — who are ready to finally discover peace with their bodies. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode! Also, make sure to follow the podcast if you haven’t already done so. Follow now.