KATY: Hey, I’m Katy Harvey, a non-diet dietitian. If you’ve spent years battling food in your body, I’m here to show you the path to healing. Here on the Rebuilding Trust with Your Body podcast, I teach you how to find your own freedom with food through tools, strategies, mindset shifts, and heartfelt discussions around what it means to make peace with food and your body while still existing in diet culture.

I believe that all bodies deserve respect. And that health is so much more than a number on the scale. It’s about connecting with our true selves and learning that our relationship with food. Is more important than the food itself. So if you’re ready to discover the freedom of rebuilding trust with your body, grab a seat and maybe a snack and let’s do this.

Hey there. Welcome back to Rebuilding Trust with your Body. I am so, so excited for you. To hear this conversation. My guest today is someone really special. Taushia Henkel-Johnson is not only a therapist, but she has also done the work herself to make peace with food. In fact, she is one of my incredible clients who has gone through Non-Diet Academy and she’s in Non-Dieters Club.

So we’ve had that opportunity to really dig in deep and do the work together. And what I can tell you is this. Taushia brings such a thoughtful and honest and down to earth perspective to this work because she’s living it and she’s supporting her own clients through the hard work of therapy and coping with hard emotions.

And so she gets it both personally and professionally. I have also learned so much from Taushia herself and brought her on not only to share her personal story because I know that you’re going to find elements of it that you can relate to and things that you will learn from her story that even if it’s different than your own lived experience, you’re still going to find it valuable.

And I also brought her on to talk about body image and for Taushia to share her expertise on shame, social anxiety, something called spot theory, as well as some really practical strategies that you can use when you feel like you’re being judged for what’s on your plate or you’re worried that other people are judging your body.

I do want to give a quick trigger warning before we dig in. Taushia talks openly about her eating disorder history as well as some symptoms and behaviors. And there is some mention of weight numbers in this episode. So if that feels like more than your nervous system can handle today and it’s going to be too triggering for you, it is 100% okay.

To just skip the rest of this episode or to fast forward past those parts, you got to take care of yourself. All that said, I know that you are going to learn so much and you’re going to feel really motivated to keep doing the work to make peace with food and your body after listening to this.

So let’s get into it. Taushia, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited that you’re here.

TAUSHIA: Yay.

KATY: This is going to be fun. And I love that this is going to be so juicy because we can talk about both, you know, your own. Personal experience, but then your expertise as a therapist. And there are a million things that I want to ask you about. So I can’t wait to dig in.

Let’s just start with a little bit more about who you are and your story. So can you share some more about that and your background and a little bit about your personal relationship with food. And body image and how you found intuitive eating?

TAUSHIA: Yes. Yeah. So a little bit about me. I am 37 years old. I live in northeastern Minnesota. I am a psychotherapist. I’ve got a three year old kiddo and a husband. And my relationship with food and body image, like difficulties, I think started pretty early on in the context of, uh, my parents struggled a lot with addiction, mental health.

And so there was a lot of food insecurity at various points in my life. And even when I’m thinking back, it’s like I remember probably the first time. I don’t know that I necessarily like binge eating, but I do have a specific memory of being like 4 years old and eating an entire Big Mac to myself that I knew I was supposed to share with my dad.

But I was so ravenous and I only left one bite left for him because I knew I was supposed to share, otherwise I would have absolutely eaten it all by myself regardless. And so, um, the food insecurity is interesting because that part was forced upon me or was just a product of my circumstances but then later it became something that I did to myself. 

KATY: So what do you mean by that? Say more about that piece.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, so in sixth grade, that’s when I started restricting food. I, at that point. So again, I had grown up with just a lot of difficulty in my family and didn’t know how to get, uh, my emotional needs met. I didn’t know how to talk about what was going on in my family.

There is a lot of shame and secrecy, which are kind of two of the unspoken rules or very strong dynamics in families with chemical dependency. So I Didn’t talk about the problem. I was a great student. Nobody would have ever suspected that there was anything going on in my life.

But I really, really needed so much comfort and connection and love and support and had no clue how to get it. And I, uh, had heard that was the first time I had heard of, like, I. An eating disorder was in sixth grade. And I, like, remember that being like, that is the key.

That is what I need to do in order for me to get comfort and love and connection is if I have an eating disorder, people will. I don’t know, like, will I go in the hospital? Will people be worried about me? Will they comfort me? Will they care about me?

Will they be there for me? And so that, like, it gave me a lot of hope, which is a very strange thing when you’re thinking about, like, an eating disorder or any illness, how it gave me so much hope. So from there, it went into just a lot of pretty serious restriction and like, using syrup of epicac a couple of times and laxatives and excess exercise at times and just a lot of food restriction and a lot, like, just eating as little, as little, as little as possible.

So a number, like, plenty of days where I was so thrilled that I had eaten only an apple for that one day. And the goal. It was a thrill, but it was also, like, I failed because the goal was to eat nothing. And I don’t think I ever made it a day without eating anything.

And I think that was really bothersome to me. But, yeah, it really kept this, like, for me, this hope, this fantasy alive that I used a lot in terms of, like, we know that kids that experience a lot of trauma daydream a lot. And that was something that. This was my fantasy was I would daydream all the time, hours a day, probably about.

And my goal was that I would become so sick that I would, like, pass out at school in a hallway or in the presence of administrators, teachers, whoever. And somebody would have to rush over to me and kind of pick me up in their lap and hold me and comfort me. And I would get a hug, which is really sad to say out loud.

KATY: Yeah, it’s really heartbreaking to think that that was how you were fantasizing about getting that need met.

TAUSHIA: Yeah. And it was just such a big part of my life for so long, that fantasy of, like, I. And it’s just sad. It’s like that’s how badly I needed connection, how badly we all need connection is that we were willing to put ourselves through some pretty horrific things in order to try to get that need met.

And now, and you’ve heard me talk about how I strongly am against the phrase like attention seeking because people, I’m sure people would hear this and say she was just attention seeking. And I’m like, oh my gosh, please let’s reframe this to connection seeking, comfort seeking. Because this is a biological need.

It’s a survival need to be connected with other people, especially when our children to have a competent caregiver that’s available to us. And so when I look back, I don’t look back with like a lot of like cringy shame about like, ooh. I was just like this, like in this phase as a teenager who was like attention seeking.

I look back on that with a lot of compassion towards myself and sadness. And then one thing that we say in therapy a lot is like I came up with this really. Or in therapy in general, like not just my own therapy, but people come up with really creative strategies that are very costly.

And that was such a creative strategy and it was so costly. But it gave me a lot of hope for a long time.

KATY: And I was thinking that as you were, you were talking like how creative and in some ways, I don’t know if resourceful is quite the right word. But like you know, when you’re a kid and you don’t have a ton of resources and uh, you know, ways to get your needs met, like how clever that your brain was, was orchestrating these things For you. Even if it was dangerous and kind of misguided, but It’s so easy to see the way you describe it, like the underlying need that was there.

TAUSHIA: Yeah. And I definitely wasn’t a kid who was gonna go and get in trouble at school or like whatever. And so I think about like in therapy we talk about internalizers and externalizers and me being an internalizer. It’s like I’m not gonna harm other people in order to get my need met, but I will harm myself in order to try to get this need met.

I’m not gonna be. I still get to use this people pleasing strategies and still try to get a lot of positive attention when. While also engaging in something that’s not helpful.

KATY: I see similar things a. Lot with kids or with people as. Adults who, who do this or did. This in their past too where it might not be like I want to have an eating disorder and restrict and, and be very ill in order to get my needs met.

But sometimes it’s like using the food itself, like sneaking food, binging on food, compulsively eating food. Like, sometimes the food becomes that substitute for, for connection and for comfort. And again, you know, it’s a clever. Way of getting that need met, even if it’s not ultimately truly meeting the need.

TAUSHIA: Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah.

KATY: Now, so I’m curious from there, like, when in your life did you hear. About this concept of intuitive eating? Or like, was, was there a pivot. Point for you where you were like, okay, I don’t actively want to be sick anymore. I want to be well and have freedom with food?

TAUSHIA: Yeah, I think it definitely morphed from wanting to get this need for connection and compassion met to more, uh, focus on like the social value aspect of it. Like in my early 20s, so at that point, yeah, I wasn’t starving myself. It was more so just like, yep, I’m going to do no carbs, whatever, like eat very minimally, lots of protein, whatever, just so that I can look good.

Because that’s what our culture tells me I should do. And so I think it did shift. That’s interesting to think about. And I think I really, I think the shift was when I went from my undergraduate degree to my graduate degree. It was like I kind of knew, like, I’m going to school to be a therapist, I want to be the healthiest version of myself.

I don’t know exactly what shifted other than like, I’m going to be a therapist, I need to stop doing this. Maybe it was perfect for a lot of people.

KATY: There wasn’t like a clear moment like you would see in a movie.

TAUSHIA: That still wasn’t the end dieting, because I would think that that was the end of like, maybe disordered eating, but it wasn’t the end of like quite a lot of restriction. Still got it. Yeah, yeah.

KATY: What do you think dieting was doing for you? Because I would imagine that that was meeting needs in somewhat different ways than the eating disorder.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, I think dieting was mostly just about a. I was under the guise that this is how you. How I can take care of my body and be healthy. But it was probably competing, probably competing with also like. First spot number one in terms of why I did it.

Also with just wanting to be young and pretty and cute and got lots of like felt lots of power in the world for that or lots of attention for that. And it was definitely a boost to my self esteem, which I. And it makes me think of. I just really remembered, uh, the day that so in graduate school I got braces on my teeth and I remember feeling so like embarrassed of my appearance and I remember feeling so disappointed in myself because I realized at that moment how much pride or confidence or like value I had put on my appearance.

And that really devastated me to realize that because I never, even though I’m talking about like, of course it gave me like some social value or whatnot. Like that was never a real strong part of like my presentation or my values. Like I always valued being like really like, I don’t know, deep or like helping other people or

But in a genuine way. And so I didn’t want to externally make it look like my life was about like being sexy or hot or attractive or whatnot. But I still had this like feeling of like this feels good. Like this feels good. So I think that that was definitely still part of it for sure.

And then the switch to like intuitive eating was so yeah, I got, went through my 20s, got married, I got pregnant in 2021. And in 2019, right before the pandemic hit, I had like had this rapid onset of weight gain and it was really surprising and I still don’t know what caused it.

And it wasn’t a big change and it was not a change in my eating or my movement. I’m so confused by it still. I gained like, I don’t know like 50 pounds within like three months. And it was before the pandemic, so I wasn’t like stuck at home being like more sedentary than normal or, or whatever.

And then I think I gained another like 10, 20 pounds during the pandemic. And that really panicked me because I immediately thought like, I’m unhealthy, I’m unwell. Then fast forward, I get pregnant. Um, I didn’t actually gain much weight during pregnancy because I was super sick. But then I had this horrible C section where the doctors.

It was not an emergency C section and doctors operated on me despite me saying over and over again, I could feel you cutting me. I can feel like, what is this feeling? What is this feeling? And then after that I developed congestive heart failure because they gave me way too many fluids via IV because I was in labor for a really long time before the C section.

And that was a big tipping point. Or like that was terrifying. I thought I was going to die. And I was alone in my hospital room for hours thinking I was going to die because they thought for a while it was a pulmonary embolism. And I just remember crying, thinking, like, I’m going to leave my brand new baby, like alone in this world.

Like this is going to be on like Dateline or something. Like, this is crazy. Like I just was terrified and nobody could come to my room. My husband couldn’t come to my room because it was Covid. And and so then I was like, I was so mad at myself for gaining weight.

Is the, uh, kind of where I’m going with that. I was so mad at myself for gaining weight and I was like, this is because I gained all this weight. And so immediately I was like, I mean, I had to do a low sodium diet because of the congestive heart failure, but I was just like, I’m eating scrambled eggs and vegetables and that’s it.

Which then led me into restrict, restrict, restrict, binge, restrict, restrict, restrict, binge. And then I was like, I can’t, like I need to figure this out. And so I was like, I just know, at minimum, I know that I need to get connected with a therapist who specializes in eating disorders.

Because anytime that somebody has an eating disorder, they should not just go to any random therapist, they always should go to somebody who specializes in eating disorders. And so I got connected and it was like around that time I think I’d heard about intuitive eating. So which is crazy because I had been a therapist for like 11 years.

KATY: Yeah. It’s not like it’s taught in grad school. It’s only sometimes taught to dietitians. And if it is, it’s sort of mentioned very much in passing.

TAUSHIA: Yes. It’s wild. Mhm. So yeah, I got a copy of Health at Every Size. I read that changed my life. I could not believe, like, it just, it blows my mind. Like the political landscape behind why obesity or being overweight is still seen as like such a massive health risk factor.

And it’s not. So I got connected with a. Yeah. An eating disorder specialist therapist and a non diet dietitian and worked through that stuff. And like reading Health at Every Size really, I think was like the most powerful thing for me.

KATY: What do you think it was? I know you mentioned kind of briefly just a second ago some of what was in it. But like, are there other things that you have just carried with you that changed everything or just, you know, things that really surprised you and really helped you to heal?

TAUSHIA: Knowing like, for me, like, I really value being like social justice work. And so also learning that fatphobia is, is rooted in racism, like, what the f*ck? Like, that’s crazy. And so that really inspired me. I still have yet to read Fear in the black body, but my understanding is basically that because black bodies tend to be larger than white bodies and one way that we kind of made white people scared of black people was we told them that black people had diseases and they were unwell and inferior.

And see, look at them, they’re, they’re overweight or whatever. That’s my understanding about the premise of how this became weaponized, how fat became weaponized. And so that to me also really.

KATY: Sounds like that really bumped up with your values where you’re like, well, I, I don’t believe those things and I’m not going to align myself with a way of thinking that’s rooted in racism.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, absolutely.

KATY: Was there anything that surprised you as part of this process as you’ve been healing with both food and with your body? Like anything that comes to mind that you’re like, you know, I didn’t expect that or this has been kind of a byproduct of it that I m wouldn’t have anticipated.

TAUSHIA: I think some of the things I’ve noticed are I am um, spending more time preparing food and like cooking, like taking more time to like cook like from scratch. And I never was like super big into, I don’t know, like, not scratch but like, I’m just like enjoying buying like fresh ingredients now and trying new recipes and I’m not scared of the ingredients.

Like I remember like one of the first things after reading or while reading Health at Every Size, I was like, I really want to make homemade pasta. That sounds so fun. And it turns out it was not fun at all. But, but I wasn’t scared to eat the pasta, which was so cool.

Like, because that had just been like a bad, off limits, high calorie, high carbohydrate food for like, and just like a guilt ridden meal for so long. And I was like, no, I want to make it. That sounds really fun. So preparing foods, spending more time in the kitchen has been like an unexpected byproduct.

And then also I think like, how much it inspires me when I’m around, when I’m out in public and I’m around children, like, my own child or other people’s children. And I just want to make the world like, it’s like, if I can do, like, uh, be one person who is helping create a safer world for their generation, safer to be in a fat body, a bigger body, anybody, and not hide it, that makes me really happy.

And so if I’m at the beach, it’s like, okay, I’m not going to hide my stomach or my arms or my thighs or my whatever, because I just want kids to see fat bodies or bodies of all sorts of sizes that just exist and I don’t have to cover it up and.

Or another thing, too. It’s like, if my kid comes to me one day and says, like, mommy, you’re fat. I want to be like, yeah, you’re right, I am. And, like, teach him that, like, fat isn’t bad. Um, that is just a descriptor. You’re right. I am fat. I’m fat, I’m short, I’m blonde.

I’m a therapist. I live in Minnesota. I’m your mommy. Like, these are just words. And I didn’t expect to, like, be comfortable one day calling myself fat or referring myself as fat, but now I do, and I don’t mean it with any negative connotation. It’s hard because you say that around people and they immediately want to comfort you because the connotation is, ah, yeah.

KATY: You’re fully aware that it makes other people uncomfortable.

TAUSHIA: Right? Right. Don’t say that. And it’s like, I didn’t say I was a bad person. I didn’t say I was ugly. I just said it was fat. But that’s the implication behind fat. Right.

KATY: But how cool would it be if, you know, the next generation, which I, you know, it’s not going to change that quickly, but it is cool to think about that ripple effect where, you know, what if you can raise your son to see fat bodies as just normal and body diversity as normal and to not have judgments about it. You know, it’s just. I think that that is how we turn the tide is You know, one person at a time, one family at a time.

TAUSHIA: Yeah. It definitely requires me to use some of my skills as a. Like, some of the skills that I teach my therapy clients. Because just because I know these things, it’s like, the difference between, like, cognitively I can know and then somatically I can feel very different, which is why, like, somatic therapies are, like, really on the rise right now.

It’s like CBT’s out the window. Like, let’s focus on, like. Yep. What does your body feel, though? Even if you know X, you know why, you still feel scared. So I definitely have to use skills.

KATY: Do you have any examples? What are some of those skills? Because I am certain that a lot of people listening are like, yeah, I can intellectually understand that dieting doesn’t work. And I’m not a bad person if I gain weight. Like, they get that, but they don’t feel that within.

TAUSHIA: Yeah. So some of the things I think about, like, exposure therapy regarding lots of, uh, you can do this lots of different ways. And it’s not like you’re not. You don’t have to do formal exposure therapy with a certified ERP professional. But for me, what that first looked like was wearing tank tops and shorts out, uh, in public

Even when I was incredibly uncomfortable with it. And I still am. I still am sometimes uncomfortable with it, and I do it anyway. And the only way that I can teach my brain that it is safe to do that is to allow it to experience having a positive experience of that.

And so go outside, go for a hike, wear a tank top, wear shorts. And surprisingly, uh, I don’t think I’ve ever had a comment, a negative comment about my body, which I think I expected a lot more of. And so I think if anyone’s listening, maybe that’s one thing to take away is like, we might be expecting that a lot more than it’ll actually happen.

Which relates to spotlight effect, which we can talk about later. But so exposure therapy. So just wearing the shorts and the dress, the swimsuit, the whatever, even when you’re not comfortable with it, and your body will start to get a sense that, I can do this and it can be okay, but it has to have the exposure experience of it going okay. It can’t just be told it’ll be okay.

KATY: Yeah, we can talk about it all day long, but till you do it, you’re not going to feel it. Yep. Okay. Uh, makes total sense. Any other skills that come to mind?

TAUSHIA: So going back to the spotlight effect. So the spotlight effect is a social psychology phenomenon that basically is particularly high in our adolescence. But it’s true for all people, especially if you have social anxiety, which is common for people in bigger bodies. But it’s a tendency to overestimate how much people are looking at us, noticing us, perceiving us.

And so we, because we are the center of our own universe, we tend to think that people are noticing us way more than they are and so one way, like one skill that I use to challenge that some. Or that I teach my therapy clients to challenge it. Uh, whether it’s related to their body size or just something else related to social anxiety is like, what are five things that people could be thinking about or noticing in the environment other than me, or in addition to me?

So it could be noticing, like, oh, like, I didn’t think the trees were going to be so bare or the sand was going to be so rocky, or I don’t even know. I’m thinking about when I went hiking this weekend. Those are some examples. Or what are some. Um, Then you can get fun with it, too, because I’ll ask my therapy clients, like,

If you had to make up five, like, physical sensations that somebody else might be experiencing that would draw their attention away from you, what are five physical experiences that somebody could be feeling? And if I’m doing this with, like, a kid that’s in still in high school and be like, if you’re in a classroom of 30 people, you know, somebody’s like, holding in a fart, and somebody is desperate to not let their fart get out.

And so there’s one. Or like, maybe somebody trimmed their fingernail too short. And you know how bad that sting?

KATY: Oh, it’s such a specific uncomfortable.

TAUSHIA: Or somebody needs to sneeze and they’re trying to hold in their sneeze or whatever. Like, they’ve got a tickle in their throat or a sore ear or something like that. So get some really specific. Yeah. And then what are things outside of the environment that they could be thinking about?

Would be another category. So. Oh, my gosh, my dog. My dog was puking this morning when I left for school. Like, I hope he’s okay. Or, oh, I wonder if my parents are gonna let me go to XYZ’s house this weekend. Or, oh, why didn’t this person text me back?

Or whatever. It could be so many different things. So. But I like to get really specific, and that’s my recommendation for people who are struggling with social anxiety, is to get really specific about and assign people a thought. Like, if you’re worried that, like, oh, this person is looking at me and they’re thinking I’m fat.

Well, maybe. Maybe they’re thinking that. And also maybe they’re holding in a fart. Maybe they trimmed their nail too short or whatever.

KATY: I like those, too, because it diffuses it a little bit with some humor. I play a similar game when I get, like, cut off in traffic. I’m like, they must have cut me off because they’re rushing to the hospital for their wife.

TAUSHIA: I do the same thing sometimes. Yes. Yeah. Um, and it also makes me think of just like one other skill too, is. Okay, let’s say somebody is thinking that you’re fat. What would be so bad about that? Or how does that change or affect your life if you don’t even know if they’re thinking that or not?

They might be. And if they mean it in a negative way, that sucks. But that doesn’t affect. It doesn’t affect your life at all. The consequences of somebody thinking you’re fat for the most in a lot of circumstances are going to end with just that. Unfortunately, they. There’s also systemic problems related to that.

But if you’re out on a hike and somebody thinks you’re fat, it might not be the end of the world. It might just be.

KATY: And I’m glad you came back to that because, I mean, there very well might be times that someone’s looking at another person and thinking that. And so, yeah, we have to acknowledge the real possibility there.

TAUSHIA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

KATY: So that was spotlight theory.

TAUSHIA: Yep. Spotlight effect.

KATY: Spotlight effect, yeah. And then you mentioned spot theory.

TAUSHIA: Yes.

KATY: Can you break that down for us?

TAUSHIA: Yes. So spot theory relates to what I was talking about earlier with that need for connection or comfort. But spot theory stands for social pain overlap theory. And basically what’s been found from brain image studies is that, um, when we experience rejection or even perceived receive rejection, so we think that.

So somebody does call us fat and they mean it, uh, in a negative way. Or we think that they’re thinking that we’re fat and they.

KATY: That feels kind of like rejection.

TAUSHIA: Yes. And that triggers pain receptors. And so, uh, it is painful to feel like people don’t approve of us or don’t like us or reject us in some way. And so it makes sense why it is painful or why it hurts. It’s interesting because the studies also show that.

I can’t remember if it was. I think it was Tylenol, not ibuprofen, where they specifically tested it. And I’m not telling people to take Tylenol for. I’m not telling them to take Tylenol for anything. But Tylenol works to reduce emotional pain because it operates on the same receptors of the brain.

KATY: That’s truly wild.

TAUSHIA: Isn’t that crazy?

KATY: Yeah. Again, not that when we’re in emotional pain, we should go pop some Tylenol because too much Tylenol will, like, destroy your liver. Don’t do that. But right, that, like, uh, this, like we’re literally experiencing that in our pain receptors.

TAUSHIA: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so I think another strategy too. It’s like one thing that I feel like I hear people say over and over and again like on their I. E. On their intuitive eating journey or their non diet journey, whatever is like oh, I’m having this thought, I’m having this negative body image thought or this food judgment thought.

Like and they get so frustrated with themselves and to remember like oh, oh, uh, yep, yeah. Your body’s just trying to solve this problem. Of course you’re having that thought. And we don’t have to add judgment to it. We don’t have to say like now I’m bad for having that thought.

I can just say oh yeah. My brain was trained to have that thought for decades or uh, for however long it’s been trained to have that thought. Of course it’s going to be there. And it makes sense that my body wants to protect me from this pain and it puts perceives that it’s protecting me from this pain by saying lose weight, diet, be smaller, whatever it wants, acceptance it want.

Uh, and that reduces pain. And we can of course get it get those needs met differently now. But it makes sense that that would feel upsetting.

KATY: So with the spot theory, it’s basically kind of validating that that makes sense, that it is truly very painful.

TAUSHIA: Yes.

KATY: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And it’s uh, again I’m just, I’m so blown away by that because I think that that to me as I think about, you know, just all of the people I’ve worked with and interacted with who have suffered so deeply from food and body image issues.

TAUSHIA: Mhm.

KATY: I think anybody who’s worked in this field knows that yeah, there are people are experiencing deep pain and it’s powerful to have some of that like science behind it and to go, oh wow, okay. So that’s why it’s in part so pain, it literally is in your brain being experienced that way.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, yeah. And we think about like from an evolutionary perspective why that would, why would that be, that social pain or social rejection triggers pain receptors. And what we know is that human beings have never ever been able to meet all of their needs by themselves. We’ve always needed to be part of a group.

We’ve always needed belonging and acceptance. And uh, so if you’re a caveman and you’re hiking and you break your ankle, if your tribe liked you and trusted you and they saw that you were beneficial for the greater good of the group, they were way more likely to carry you, to shelter, protect you from the elements, provide food, water, shelter, and take care of you.

And that meant survival. But if they didn’t like you, you were likely to be shunned from a group. And we still do that today. We still kind of reject people that don’t fit in or that we don’t feel like are good for our social group. And for the average person, that is meant to be a message from our body, like, do not do that.

Don’t be hurtful and mean towards other people, because this can seriously compromise your chances of survival. So again, it makes sense that when I was going through the pain that I was going through not feeling like I had my emotional needs met, how driven I was to try to get those needs met, because our bodies don’t know that we’re not in a life or death situation when we don’t have support or, uh, we don’t have the support that we need or enough support.

KATY: It also makes sense to me that if we’re operating on this belief system that your body size and shape determines your acceptability in a social setting, that of course you would want to fit the mold of whatever is acceptable, which of course we’ve been taught is thin. And the beauty standards themselves are kind of a moving target, but essentially thin for the most part.

And that fatness is perceived to be a threat of being rejected and being, you know, kicked out of the tribe and not having our survival needs met. And I think what’s really hard is that in some ways that is what happens. And so it’s like, well, we can kind of tell people that’s a wrong way of thinking that’s not true, but it kind of is because of weight stigma and fatphobia and anti fat bias.

I’m thinking specifically as you were talking of like a medical setting where somebody might be dismissed and just told you need to lose weight and that’s going to solve all your problems. Meanwhile, they’re not having their actual medical, uh, issues worked up or addressed and a diagnosis might be missed or something might not be treated until it’s farther along.

And, and so, you know, in that way it does become a true threat to our survival. And the answer to this is not, you know, well, therefore then everybody needs to not be fat.

TAUSHIA: Right.

KATY: The answer is we need to keep chipping away at this and calling it out and naming it. Uh, it’s interesting though to be able to connect those dots from a sociological perspective.

TAUSHIA: Yes. Yeah. And I think too, it makes me think of, um, I mean, it’s what you’re saying. But just saying it differently too about we have been so harped on that excess weight is detrimental to our well being and it’s not as detrimental as it’s made out to be.

And it’s a self fulfilling prophecy because again you’ve got a person on a larger body who goes to the doctor with a physical complaint and the complaint isn’t found or attended to or addressed to. So then it progresses. Maybe it’s, maybe they go to the doctor and they have stage one cancer but the doctor says you’re fat, lose weight, whatever and it gets worse and worse and worse.

But if it was a person in a thin body, a small body, they might come in with the same complaint and find you have stage one cancer of XYZ type and it gets treatment. So how that becomes a self of fulfilling prophecy that maybe people in bigger bodies have possibly, I don’t know, more health issues because they’re not getting diagnosed until they’re stage three, stage four or whatever the related like terminology would be for a given diagnosis.

KATY: Let’s talk about the 90 second rule. You had mentioned this to me the other day and I would love for you to explain what is the 90 second rule and how does that play into navigating body image distress or maybe like a challenging situation with food and you know, how can we use that to help support our intuitive eating process?

TAUSHIA: Yeah. So the 90 second rule. Jill Bolt Taylor, I’m referencing something that she writes about. She is a neuroscientist at Harvard. She actually experienced a stroke herself and she was a neuroscientist experiencing a stroke. And uh, she wrote a book called My Stroke of Insight and kind of the intersection of having all this knowledge about how the brain operates without the experiencing a stroke.

But what she talks about in her book is this idea of the 90 second rule that we have 90 seconds from the time that an emotional response is triggered and our body releases the chemicals, neurotransmitters, hormones in our body that sense set off this chain reaction like the fight or flight response, freeze whatever it is that are our emotions.

So maybe it’s not fight or flight, but it’s disappointment or whatever. We have 90 seconds where we actually can’t really do anything to make that feeling go away. We just have to ride the wave. There is nothing that we can do in, in about 90 seconds other than allowing your body to metabolize those neurotransmitters and hormones.

And here’s where I think it’s helpful is to remember that you are not failing. If you don’t immediately stop feeling embarrassed, you just will. Until your body’s able to metabolize those. That stress response and, uh, your line of thinking, like, kind of aligns to where it’s no longer like a trigger, I guess.

But I think going back to again, like, if you’re having the thought, like, damn it, like, I’m doing intuitive eating. I had this food judgment thought, like, what is wrong with me? Why do I keep doing this? It’s like, to be able to say, yep, we’re not going to add shame.

We’re not going to add another unhelpful thought on top of the emotion or in response to the emotion. Because what happens is every time you add an unhelpful or a judgmental thought, such as, like, I’m bad at this. I’m feeling something’s wrong with me. I can’t do this right.

I’m reverting. Whatever is. You add a new burst of, uh, neurotransmitters and hormones into your bloodstream. So you’ve got two bursts of those chemicals in your bloodstream. So it increases, um, the distress and it resets the clock. So if you were on your first 90 second ride trying that your body’s working to metabolize those stress response, and then now, oh, add judgment.

They’re resetting the clock. And you can see where people spiral with that. And so one thing you can do is just notice it again. I’m noticing that I’m having this thought. I’m going to let my body do its thing. This is anxiety. And kind of ironically, sometimes for a lot of people, I need to help them realize that you’re allowed to have anxiety.

And sometimes that’s the worst part of it, too, is that it feels horrible. And I don’t want to minimize that, but to recognize sometimes that’s the worst thing that’s going to happen is that you’re going to feel anxious and then you can move on. So if you’re out in public and you feel worried that somebody is judging you, you can validate yourself.

Okay, Yep. Spot theory says that that makes sense that I would be bothered by this because this is about survival. And then also, yep, I’m just going to give it 90 seconds here. I’m not failing the fact that this bothered me. This does not mean I’m failing in my intuitive eating journey or my body acceptance journey.

It’s just how brains and bodies work, and I’m going to let it happen.

KATY: That’s great. I’m sitting here thinking of whenever I have a big, like, emotional reaction to something, uh, and that wave comes, and how hard it is to sit with Someone significant anxiety or embarrassment or fear or whatever it might be, and all of the unhelpful things that we will do within those 90 seconds.

Like, so much can happen so quickly. Like, you fire off that email or that text, or you decide, like, oh, uh, that’s it. I’m going back on that diet tomorrow. And we will make all sorts of impulsive decisions in those moments. So it’s like, okay, if you can. Give yourself 90 seconds, I bet it’s.

The longest 90 seconds of your life to just sit with it. Right. That it will pass.

TAUSHIA: Yes, it will pass. For a lot of people when they’re early on in their journey, it’s not going to be just the 90 seconds because they’re going to be fighting those other thoughts about, like, oh, that’s good to know.

So it’s not like, oh, I waited 90 seconds and it’s not gone, and this doesn’t work. She’s full of crap.

Right. So sometimes I like to have people just kind of like, observe and describe, like, what are you noticing? Just like, if. If we’re just like a scientist doing an experiment. Experiment. Like, you’re just gonna notice, like, oh, my heart rate’s increasing. My palms feel sweaty, My feet feel kind of like they want to walk or kick or run or something.

We’re just describing it without judgment. And this is my body. Yep. Preparing me to fight against something, even though the something isn’t necessarily something I can physically fight against right now. So, like, good job, Bodi. You’re doing what you’re designed to do. Thank you. And we’re hopefully done with the panic or with the whatever.

KATY: Yeah. So much of this is about kind of understanding our. Our biology and our psychology and being able to appreciate it and being able to then also come back to what serves you well in the moment. And so I think, overall, as kind of a. An overarching kind of framework, I think that’s a helpful way to think of these things.

TAUSHIA: Yeah.

KATY: What would you say as we kind. Of wrap up here, like, what is. One key thing that you would want people listening to take away from this conversation?

TAUSHIA: Oh, uh, you know, I don’t know if we actually said it during any of the. This conversation, but one key thing that I think made such a difference for me was knowing that or learning how negative dieting is on our physical health. And so I think, for me, that was really powerful to know that dieting.

And you can correct me when I’m wrong here. Dieting negatively affects our blood pressure, insulin resistance, metabolism. Am I Getting it right with all of those.

KATY: Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, cholesterol, I mean like so many health markers.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, right, right. So it’s meant to be some or it’s touted as something that’s like supposed to be helpful, but it’s so harmful and you can be healthy in a bigger body. And I think that would be the main thing. It’s like, I just, I didn’t know that and I don’t think most people know that.

KATY: Yeah, that kind of comes back to when you read health at every size and your introduction into intuitive eating, like the, the way your mind was just sort of blown and y started looking at all these things so differently. Mhm.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

KATY: And then from there it kind of opens the door to being able to look at things in this new way and to use things like the spot theory and the 90 second rule and to apply it with this. But it kind of starts with having that paradigm shift in your mind.

TAUSHIA: Mhm.

KATY: That’s awesome. I love that and I love how it’s like you can so relate to this both personally and professionally. And you know, I think a lot of times that is such a beautiful blend of lived experience with professional experience.

TAUSHIA: Yeah, I definitely noticed too, like a lot of therapy clients weren’t like the shame was so big about talking about their binge eating or usually I feel like binging might have, I don’t know, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think in my experience with working with therapy clients and I don’t specialize, I haven’t specialized in eating disorders.

But when I’m assessing for people’s eating patterns and their relationships with food, binging seems to be the one that has the biggest shame attached to it because it’s attached with like gluttony and whatever. And that when I, when I’m assessing that with people now, I just let them know like, hey, I want you to know that I have a history of binge eating and if that helps you feel more comfortable.

And that has made such a difference now my clients are talking about it all the time and then I’m able to get them connected with a non diet dietitian or if they need a referral for somebody who special a therapist who specializes in it. So that’s really cool because people weren’t willing to talk about it before.

I think also when I was in a smaller body, it probably just didn’t feel as safe for them or maybe they had some assumptions that I was thinking negatively about their bodies too. But yeah, I definitely like to share that with therapy clients to help just create some of the emotional safety about, like, I’m not judging, like, I struggle.

KATY: Hard thing to talk about. And you’re totally right. I think if, you know, for most people, if they were like, oh, I have to. If I had to pick an eating disorder, I would totally choose anorexia because that one’s, you know, we glorify the fitness and the control and the restriction and binge m eating disorder would be like at the bottom of most people’s list.

TAUSHIA: Yes. Yeah.

KATY: And what. You know what else is interesting? This is sort of an aside. Binge eating disorder itself is more common than anorexia and bulimia combined. Like, it is by far the most common struggle that people have with food. But, uh, because of the shame, it’s not talked about.

TAUSHIA: Yes. I’m so not surprised by that. Yeah. Yep. And there’s so much shame with that. Yeah.

KATY: What a gift that you’ve found that way to make it safe for people to start talking about that. That’s so awesome.

TAUSHIA: YeaH.

KATY: Okay, I’m gonna do my rapid fire questions that I like to end with just a little bit more light hearted. So first one, what? Definitely one of your favorite snacks.

TAUSHIA: Have you ever heard of the Noosa yogurt? 

KATY: Yes.

TAUSHIA: Noosa, the strawberry yogurt.

KATY: That’s my favorite one. Yes.

TAUSHIA: Oh, yes. Yes. I love that one. Or, um, nacho cheese Doritos.

KATY: Amazing. Yeah. We were talking about those the other day with.

TAUSHIA: I know. I did try cheese with the cottage cheese. I tried that like 10 minutes before this interview. I wasn’t a fan of the texture. I was like, okay, you really like this for everyone.

KATY: That’s funny. Okay, what about cats versus dogs? Which one do you gravitate towards 

TAUSHIA: Dogs. 100%.

KATY: Yeah, me too. Are you more of a summer person or a winter person?

TAUSHIA: Summer.

KATY: And what about a TV show or a book that you have really enjoyed lately?

TAUSHIA: Well, I have a 3 year old, so the only TV I’m watching is like Bluey. But a book that I have enjoyed is how not to hate your husband after kids.

I feel like I need yes. By Jamesy Dunn. I’m reading it personally and professionally and it’s very interesting. It’s been really helpful for my work with therapy clients.

KATY: That’s awesome. And I like when it’s like, yeah, the work you’re doing in therapy, like, this is totally a business expense because I need this. But also it’s Definitely personal, right?

TAUSHIA: Yeah. Oh, uh, it’s so nice to be in a field where, like, everything that I learned professionally almost always helps me personally. It’s pretty cool.

KATY: It is one of the perks of the job, for sure. Okay, last question. What’s your favorite form of self care lately?

TAUSHIA: Ooh, I’d m say maybe, like, I put on these press on nails because I pick at my fingers and my. The skin around my nails really badly. And I can’t pick at them if I have these nails on because they’re, like, too thick. And also they’re just, like, really shiny and pretty and cute.

You’re like, oh, right, right. And I get to, like, take 30 minutes away from my toddler if on a weekend, if he had a really overstimulating weekend. I’m like, honey, I guess I gotta do my nails now.

KATY: I gotta let the nails dry. Sorry.

TAUSHIA: Yeah

KATY: It’s a good way to take just a little time for yourself, which I think is beautiful. Taushia, where can people find you and connect with you? Especially if people listening are like, I’m in Minnesota. She works in Minnesota. She’s licensed in Minnesota. Where would people reach out if they want get a hold of you?

TAUSHIA: I guess they would go on my Psychology Today website. So if they Google Psychology Today. Taushia. My whole name is spelled funny. Taushia T A U S H I A and then Henkel-Johnson. I do have a website, but it’s not up and running or email taushia@individualandrelationshiptherapyofdeluth.org

KATY: Beautiful. We’ll put that in the show notes so people don’t have to remember all of that.

TAUSHIA: Sounds good.

KATY: Yes. Thank you so much for being here today.

TAUSHIA: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

KATY: Uh, wasn’t that so good? I feel like there is so much in that conversation that we’re not usually taught to think about when it comes to body image. Especially the part about how other people’s judgments aren’t just annoying and frustrating and upsetting, but they can literally feel threatening. It’s a very real survival thing in the way that your brain is experiencing it.

And that point in and of itself that it just clicked for me in such a big way, that was such a huge aha. That I learned from Tasha, if you. Have ever felt like your body image issues are silly, or that you shouldn’t care so much. I hope that this helped you see that what you’re feeling makes sense.

And it’s not about being too sensitive or vain or shallow. It’s about you being a human being and wanting to belong. If this resonated, I want you to send it to a friend who might be working through the same stuff. Or maybe you have a family member. And if you want more support around healing your relationship with food and body image, reach out to me and we can chat about the current ways that I have available for us to work together in my communities.

We’re having conversations like this all the time, and it will absolutely support you in making your journey less lonely, and we can speed up your progress so. That you don’t have to keep struggling. Thank you so much for being here. And as always, remember you are worthy just as you are.

 

Rate, Review & Follow Us!

“I love Katy and Rebuilding Trust With Your Body.” <– If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more people — just like you — who are ready to finally discover peace with their bodies. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode! Also, make sure to follow the podcast if you haven’t already done so. Follow now.